Family discussion 2023-07-01

http://john.permakultura.wiki/assets/Family-Meeting-2023-07-01.m4a

**Gabriel:** [00:00:00] Papa has, we can do **Anya:** so much. We can even change what people say, slightly. And we can, **Gabriel:** uh, edit out weird background noise, all the It's so easy to do with it. It's all A. I. power. You can, you can also re You can also re voice something if **Anya:** you didn't. So it'd be like the reality TV show everyone wants us to have. Mm hmm. Sitcom. **Gabriel:** Reality podcast. That'd be amazing to start up, yeah. Reality! But **Anya:** how do you make money on a podcast? **Gabriel:** You, uh, release episodes on a premiere, and then you Put them behind a paywall. That's what Joaquin did, but I don't know. Sponsor. Sponsorship. **Anya:** We just had this conversation, and now we're not having it anymore, but... We're having a different conversation. No, a different one. Um, so, we were just, I was just saying, like, we're, Myron's dealing with writing problems. Like, he can't figure out how to, how to get his, how to get his writing out of his head, you know? How to what? How to write. What he wants to write. [00:01:00] He's really frustrated by this. Um, And I said, isn't it like rhetoric and dialectic and grammar and all that? Like you're stuck in a level. But I couldn't remember the level. So I looked up the trivia. So it went, it goes grammar, rhetoric, dialectic. No, it goes grammar, dialectic. I'm sorry, grammar, dialectic, rhetoric. Rhetoric is the place where he's stuck. Where he can't make a coherent. Presentation of all the stuff he's both studied and processed well in his mind, which is dialectic, right? **John:** Well, and that's, I think that's because He's, he tries to, um, think you would do great if you could focus to one topic. **Myron:** Well, that's the problem. Everything connects to freaking everything else. I have an entire, at least 5D chess board in my head. That I'm trying to put a, a single string, because writing is linear, by definition. There's a string I'm trying to put through all the entire chess board. Picking cubes [00:02:00] picking and it's Fal **John:** growing up in the age of the worldwide **Anya:** web one. So it's fractal. Cause every time you enter one of those cubes and try to focus, you can make a whole nother five D chess outta that little square. **Gabriel:** If you don't have a wig, you have a Google Doc or something, write this and connect and trying to make an overarching map of one yummy, **Anya:** giant topic. Okay. Try it, taste it. Decide. Yeah. It **Myron:** become extremely tiring to try to make all the. So you don't make all of the connections at once. You cut it off by saying, this connects to blah, blah, blah, but you don't make that. You don't draw that. We're not supposed to be looking at this **John:** mobilized boredom. If there is some kind of deliverable goal, we made a talk for Agrorus, it was successful. We can do that. We can make a goal. We were writing as a team. If we put our minds together. **Myron:** We were all doing what we're good at. **John:** If we make, if we make up our minds and make a video, make a podcast, anything we put our minds to, we can do it. **Gabriel:** Let's do the, I [00:03:00] wanna know, **Anya:** I'm trying to fill you in a whole bunch of backstory. Okay. We have this, that's the problem statement and, and the solution statement, but he's, we're trying to figure out, like, he's like, how do I actually organize my writing? I don't know how. Okay. So I looked up trivia. We looked up trivia, and it says, okay, now a lot of people have a lot of trouble. This is, is a classical conversations article from America. A lot of people have a lot of trouble with rhetoric because they can't get, they can't produce the stuff they're trying to produce, okay? And it said there's five canons of rhetoric. And there's like, so there's a list of the steps of getting this stuff organized to present. So what are you going to write about, how are you going to arrange it, and then there's three more that we haven't touched yet. But, what I was saying while you're doing this is, I said, you know, here's a problem. You started saying, well, we've got Kronos and we've got Kairos, and I was like, yeah, so for Kairos, we're trying, what we're trying to do right now is run this linear thread of a written work, which is a strand. You're right, it's [00:04:00] one dimensional, it's a strand, and you run it through. And you can't, it doesn't have... Dimensionality in any given moment. It's, it's, it's single, single strand. That's chronos. And you're trying to run this chronos through the chirotic situation. Which is like, everything is always happening at once. Everything is multi dimensional. Yeah, so I said, so for instance, I'm looking, I'm sitting here, I'm looking across at this table. I know about five different projects I can start all at once and, and clear the whole thing and make everything look nice. But instead I'm sitting here, choosing to have this conversation focused because I couldn't do both of them. I could not do that if I was doing this. And then I said, and the people who, this is, I'm turning into a bigger visionary. The people who developed the Trivium were not doing their own housework either. Okay? The people who, um, the intellectuals who work on, [00:05:00] Ideas and promoting and pushing new ideas and helping society grow are not doing their own housework. Or they don't have time to do all that. **Gabriel:** Ayn Rand isn't wrong. **Anya:** And so, and then Meyers said, yeah, and big families provide us with young, there's lots of young girls who before they're married they go be a maid for a few years. And now everybody's got their housework covered. Who needs their housework covered. And then, I said, it's almost as if the And now what we're doing, is because those families don't really exist, we're relying on the infertile married women. Or the unmarried women who couldn't get married because of societal insanity. Or widows, or No, people who had cancer and can't have babies to do housework. So [00:06:00] it's kind of screwed up, you know. But there's a whole other, like there's a whole, a whole And I said, I think I'm, you may have one. I think it's accurate to say that everyone's happier if I'm not tied up with housework. And instead, I'm able to do all the facilitating **Gabriel:** jobs. **Anya:** Supporting the education and growth of the kids. Yeah. And so, we have to figure out how to **Myron:** Facilitating action over **Anya:** Move the system enough that they are productive, and you're productive, and I'm productive. So that we have the income to be that kind of a household. And I'm just, uh, Mama. Mama, I'm not clear on how to jumpstart that, how to prime the palm, how to get it going. Maria helps. I wanted to get to the next level. What? Mmm, [00:07:00] sure. That's good, that was the best. I wanted to give you that background. I wasn't, I'm not saying anything wrong with your, sure we got that out. **Gabriel:** The podcast topic. **Myron:** Not everything is important. **Gabriel:** I don't remember who brought it up. I did. Someone said that we should record these conversations we have. I did, yeah. We should just record them on our phones. I'm probably supposed to put them down. Get a background event that happened. **Sasha:** I just made this cool gun, though. **Gabriel:** Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and, put episodes together. Uh, where we're discussing anything. It's time we already used. Uh, we're just formatting it. We just spent a bit of extra work formatting [00:08:00] it. In a publishable, into a publishable form, you know. So, we have Momos Is it recording now? Yeah, I started recording basically when public came to the room. Uh, so we should... So what could we even call it? I mean, like, that's actually important. I don't think a name is really important right now. I understand. I mean, it's an important thing to... Eventually, eventually. To know what we're... Eventually, we gotta see if it'll work first. Okay. I think it would, we could, uh, Might I say something about sponsors? Sponsorship or something? Patreon. Patreon, why not? Patreon, or the, the thing, There's people who are like, This is, this is a start, An early way to get a bit of income out of it, But it can link to so many other things, So easily. It's all our [00:09:00] family topics. **Myron:** Having it up there is really useful because we can find, okay, the topics covered in this are, let me get the list of topics covered in it. We'll have lists of topics covered in each episode, and then we might have our own transcripts stored away, of like, okay, that episode has this transcript and these topics, so we know what things we're referencing. Okay, what were we talking about at this point? That'll help to put articles together like you're talking about Papa. Well, I took saffron and it really helped. I got outside, came in and got outside and did stuff. **Gabriel:** Right, like I said, you're going to feel that initial shock of energy and non anxiety, etc. But then it's going to go away and it's going to take multiple doses to reach about 20. **Myron:** Well, it's really helping. **Anya:** You know, answer solution. I just want to make sure we recap that because it hadn't been recorded, and it hadn't been discussed really. No, you can't have the phone. **Sasha:** Now we have a recording of the idea to make recordings. **Anya:** [00:10:00] How iterative can we make it? Like that! That wonderful background noise that will just enhance our... You can only enhance the situation. Skate on the boards. Go down the stairs on your butt so you don't fall, and then go skate on the platform. Well, then she can fall and go on her butt. **Sasha:** Thump, thump, thump. **John:** Okay. Well, the problem we were talking about was Myron's writing. And my solution, uh, the solution I recommended was to, um, just... Continue to focus, to lower the scope, so that something, anything, however short, got written. And, you know, to do maybe wiki style, or just simple, you know, [00:11:00] blog, blog articles that link together. You know, um, some articles defining concepts, or giving a foundational understanding of a concept, and then other articles discussing, you know, linking between. Connections between those ideas and other ones, you know, with narrative. **Gabriel:** That would require a lot of note taking, which we're not good at. **John:** I am. **Gabriel:** Right, you are. Why not? **Myron:** Well, hold on. I have an idea. What? It's very plain, but anyway. Um, what we did for Ivor Roos worked really well. And I have a hope **John:** What did we do for Ivor Roos? I don't mean to interrupt, but that's my question. **Anya:** Meaning what? **Myron:** What we did was we had different people Using their specific skills and their specific knowledge, applying it to specifically the thing. Papa, was, like, he organized all the flows, added his own knowledge too, but [00:12:00] mostly he was organizing the flows and keeping us focused. **Sasha:** Gabriel did all the internet. You were giving lots of translation specifics, uh, **Myron:** And I gave lots of the material for the talk itself, because it was right down my alley. **Sasha:** And you told him what pictures to get, and that went through Papa, too. Yeah, so, **John:** I was, I was the producer. What? And Gabriel was, uh, I mean, Gabriel produced some of the art. **Myron:** He wasn't, he was just thought that, too. We all did some of all of it, but I, **Sasha:** I did, I, I came up and I was like Are you really, you really want to say that? **Myron:** But, my point is, I think, and I hope that if we do that a lot of times, our different skills will rub off on each other. The way Papa organizes is by organizing our brains. When Papa organizes, it makes us think a certain way, and getting in the habit of thinking that way will help us do more of that ourselves [00:13:00] too. And so I think it's beneficial not only short term, but also long term. **Anya:** So it's structural mentorship. **Myron:** Right. When we did that, it worked so well. We got the talk out fast, **Anya:** and it was good. Who did the bulk of the production of the actual writing? **Gabriel:** Papa, Papa, where are you? Papa, in my room. **Myron:** I was spitting out blurbs like crazy. And Papa sorted it all into a... **Gabriel:** You're going back and forth, uh, vetting translations. Yeah, that too. **Anya:** Dave, you're wrong. I'm wrong? So I'm actually thinking about going... Also, can I help translate? It's a di... I'm changing the topic slightly. Maybe a lot, I don't know. Uh, I'm thinking about trying to go further with the, you just wrote, uh, I'm reading everything you're writing. Do you mean in here? Where are we writing things? **John:** You were typing things in and you wanted I see. So, um, **Anya:** [00:14:00] I thought you meant other writing too. I've been working in this one notebook upstairs, um, Anything you see lying around, read it, because it might help push the discussion. Because I have to do a lot of work alone, silently, with everybody asleep, and then I write all this stuff, and then I don't even know if it's good or not. Anyway, the topic of the Matryoshka and the Barbie. **Sasha:** What is that? Well, **Anya:** it's a little analogy, a little observation, but really, if you go far enough with it, it could become a whole East West discussion book thing, you know. Um. With those just as sort of the touch points for what I'm talk, you know, how I'm, how I'm discussing it. Um, it'd be more my thing. It's obviously a, from a female perspective, **Sasha:** Barbie is a model and it's skinny, but the skin is a model and it's chubby. **Anya:** You, you, yeah. That's the essence of it. Pregnant OSH is abundance. Yeah. Too pregnant is a family. Yeah. Yes. [00:15:00] A generational. What expression, huge number of generations, you know, um, I've seen one since like 19. And, and, and both of them express, I need to watch this. Both of 'em express the historical, cultural values of their country of origin, and both of them give direction to the future for that country and where it's headed and how it's thinking and what, you know. It shows their, it shows what they value and why. And I, I think. I think, um, there's a lot of, like, many, many layers, uh, not, no, no pun intended, uh, of symbolism available in this thing, and, like, I'm just ticked, because last night, I was falling asleep, and I thought, or maybe today, I'm falling asleep, and I thought of a whole separate, like, aspect that I want to write about, but I fell asleep and forgot the whole thing. Of what is a Muttushkin, what is a Barbie. They had a whole nother, but, one image that came to mind was, you know, [00:16:00] Muttushkin, Uh, Natalie used to say, used to tell me about the, She, after, when, when, uh, her daughter was like six or seven or something, She was cleaning her, going to, she was just, you know, going to take a shower and In the bathtub was like this pile of naked Barbie dolls, you know, just this like tangle of Hair and arms and legs. And she was just like, this poor Barbie is like And, and, it's true. Nobody fin nobody leaves their Barbies in a dressed condition because dressing them is so difficult that that's, you know, like **John:** But the Matryoshkis are just decked out all the time. **Anya:** Permanently dressed. **John:** And like, you know. Yeah. They're at the folk dance. **Anya:** So most people think most people when you think of a Barbie, you think of a naked Barbie because that's how most of them are most of the time. I wrote in my thing, 80% of the Barbies in the world right now that haven't that have been sold are naked. Is that true? Girls can pull the clothes off, but putting them on is so difficult that when you're done playing with them, you don't care. Meticulously dress them first, you just quit. [00:17:00] That's when you quit. **Gabriel:** It's all about fashion. The whole, the whole... Yes! About what's... **Myron:** Fashion! But the most fashionable is the least dressed. **Anya:** Yes! Exactly. I know! Okay. **Sasha:** Okay. I mean, there are people who wear shorts and socks in winter. I've seen... High end... **Anya:** Hey, listen, papa. **John:** When we have... When we have... When we have a production pipeline, we can have product at the end of it. When we have product at the end of it, we can connect with an audience. When we connect with an audience, then it's when we can start exploring income opportunities or whatever opportunities it leads to. Yeah. Therefore, we need to figure out how to convert all the things that are happening into output. Podcast is one idea. I would love to. Act in that more. Yeah, we have a wiki farm we all know how to use. I don't know if Mama does yet. Uh, we know how to use Fed Wiki. **Gabriel:** We haven't been works, right? [00:18:00] You can **John:** like have go website that is fed Wiki. **Gabriel:** Amy and I literally have a Google bot network that we're putting together and I realize what that Google Doc network for all sorts of plans and stuff that we're discussing. Uh, it's been, it's a few months old now and it's complex. But, I realized today that federated wiki, if we were able to, it's not, it's not that great at high, high, it's not that high performance. Is I guess the issue with it, for what we want to do. Not a ton of formatting options. **John:** Like, what do you need, uh, doesn't it? Spreadsheets? **Gabriel:** We're both writers, like we both write. It doesn't, it doesn't, **John:** Use Markdown. **Gabriel:** Alright, uh, I have to explain the HTML thing. **Anya:** It's easy. Just **John:** markdown. MDZ! Markdown you can just normally type, and then when you need a bullet point it's there. Huh? You know, when you need to type. Yeah. You know. You, **Sasha:** [00:19:00] you, there's little **John:** bits of things. Um, it's not ideal. It's not perfect. **Gabriel:** Right, it's not perfect. I'm saying it's something. **Sasha:** I wonder if it's pretty shallow. **Gabriel:** I would absolutely love for there to be a more complex version of it. A more... Well I should put most of my core content on the wiki. **Anya:** If you've got Quora content, you should be saving that, because that's some of your best writing. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Because it was a prompt. And something could happen to it. It's a prompt? **Gabriel:** Yeah. And, uh, **Anya:** is Something could happen to it. I need **Gabriel:** a VPN. Quora is actively, Quora is **Anya:** actively dying. Yeah, and like that Care Pages thing that just died, and everybody lost all their stuff. Like, you need to make sure that that doesn't happen to your stuff. I actually need to be a VPN. I **Gabriel:** have some really good answers in Quora. Some **Anya:** really good writing there. Get them. Look yourself up. Grab all your stuff. Yeah. **John:** It's yours, right? **Gabriel:** Yeah, it's fine. It's like, I own the writing. That's how it works. I have permits for it. So, let's, let's start with... Permits websites. You can still, you can, you can use it for your... You can edit it. [00:20:00] **John:** You can't, unless you've signed something. Um, he can't, he can't like automatically give himself your content without your having it. No, not without your having. He can license it, he can automatically, and our wiki licenses things CCSA, but by SA, or you know. **Myron:** It's not, he doesn't keep, he doesn't keep you off it, but it makes sure. If you put it on his website. **John:** If you create it, unless you specifically license it to somebody else. Now his website might, you know, involve your, by forcing and sterilizing it to him, so that he can use it too. **Sasha:** And he does have certain rules about what you can post and what not, what you can't post, so. **Gabriel:** So I'm seeing the problem because of their publishing system. I'm seeing, right here, right here is the problem that you're talking about with the threads. Trying to trace a single thread through this whole thing. Think about all the different topics we just covered. What is the actual topic we're on? We were talking about Barbies.[00:21:00] **Anya:** I know what it is. **Gabriel:** I was about to start on an explanation of the old versus the young systems. It's, uh, Barbie is the fast developing, the pioneer, right? It's super high energy. And it's maintained at that level because everyone thinks it should be. It's all about being, uh, ideally young or whatever. It's the orderliness, the high energy, American, kinetic, everything is high energy. Getting to stay there as long as you can. Yeah. **John:** I'm listening. I'm listening, Gabriel. **Gabriel:** Uh, the longs are exactly that. They're trying to keep your system at a high energy state. Because high energy is what is pretty in America. The high energy pioneer system. Literally, Pioneers built the United States. That's what is... And they can't stop Pioneers? Pioneers, yes. [00:22:00] Brilliant. Dude! That's the culture. But that's not a permanent culture. That's not a permanent culture. That doesn't... That doesn't stick. That can only start... That can only start... We, we've been trying to stay in that whole thing over in America for centuries now. It doesn't work. We ran, **Anya:** stay in which thing? **Gabriel:** High energy state and energy state. And that high energy state. That high energy conquer. The prairie. Conquer. That's what destroy what, that's what has destroyed so much landscape. That's what's causing industrial agricul to completely wreak havoc is that this. They're, they're, we're addicted to high energy life. Gabe, Gabe, uh, if you post that on permies, you're gonna eat away all the pie, I just tangented twice, twice more from where I was, and you're interrupting. See, now this isn't, this isn't like bad, but this is why we can't have conversations. **John:** I'm just, let's keep it focused on Gabe. **Gabriel:** So, um, [00:23:00] on the other side, we have Rush's intergenerational permanence. **Anya:** Intergenerational what? **John:** Permanence. Oh. Intergenerational permanence. **Gabriel:** Okay, let's the old growth systems. That's the villages that have been around for centuries and aren't going to die anytime soon. The ones that survived the recent climate, but yeah. Where you get, uh, your log cabins are rebuilt every 50 years and the old ones rot into the ground and become forest again and it goes back and forth. Where the grain fields are abandoned when they're used up, and then they're grazed on or they turn back into some kind of forest. And you keep cycling. Or another kind of rock. It's all, it's a stable, long term system. That cycles over and over. Russia's been hit by the, uh, 20th century leap and everything.[00:24:00] And, uh, But I don't think it's destroying it. I don't think it's damaging it as much as it could. Or as much as it has over time. **John:** I thought that you were, uh, continuing the theme about, like, how we're going to turn our conversations into, um, into products. I thought that was where you were going. That's what **Gabriel:** I was trying to do. But instead I, see. So then, one day, you and I was having that, and I was... Wow. We continue to hit the conversation that we're going to turn to a problem, see? Yeah, yeah. That's helpful. So I, I opened that topic, I tried, I tried to talk about that, and you, and you came in with, We gotta turn this, we gotta figure out a way to turn our, our knowledge, our ideas, our strengths into content. That's right. **Anya:** Do you smell fun? All of this. Yeah. [00:25:00] Something smells weird. I think it's her. **Gabriel:** So, uh, From there, where do we even go? **John:** So I'm **Gabriel:** going to start back... So I'm going to walk back in my head from one thought until I figure out how I got there. I know, I know. **John:** We need to turn on a video camera or a microphone, or start drawing on the whiteboard, um, or jotting notes. And... I, I think that what we should do is to have a multimedia blog, where, which is the fire hose of those things. Just like Twitter for our family. **Anya:** Well, we have like, Keybase currently just exploding constantly with all that. **Gabriel:** Oh, there's so much on Keybase, wow. **Myron:** It's insane. **Anya:** And then we have a **Myron:** wiki. we've collected. **John:** Okay. But I think it, I think it should become, um, next. [00:26:00] Well, that's a good point. **Anya:** You leave a trail of content. **John:** But, that's not the same as shipping. **Anya:** Right. Does blogging ship it? **John:** It's closer. **Anya:** Blogs are sort of half shipped. **John:** Um, I mean, what, okay, so. How Hermes solves this is, the website goes nuts. People write on a wiki. People write on forums. And then they have a daily ish and a weekly ish and a monthly ish. Yeah, monthly that go out and say, here's what's been going on. **Sasha:** And then people who aren't as often on there, they check their email and they're like, cool. **Myron:** And then they have books, which is, some of the books are literally just. Uh, stuff that was on the website, they scraped together and was like, okay, here's the thing, here's the thing, here's the thing, here's the yearly issue. **Gabriel:** The way it's all organized is a serious project by Paul Weeds and it runs, [00:27:00] it runs in the red as he says. He's spending money all the time. He loses money to this. **Myron:** Because of investment in the information gathering. **Gabriel:** Exactly, so there's this huge. You have any ideas? He's been going, when was it? What did we say at launch? Like 2000... I think it's 2000. Oh no, not 2000. There are posts from 16 years ago. 16. I mean 14. Okay, let's call it 16 years ago. Say it was launched 16 years ago. There's 16 years of of thousands of people talking about all sorts of permaculture and homesteading and sustainability topics. And... There are people, there are people, uh, with tens of thousands of posts, some of the higher level, uh, Right. They talk there all the time. You couldn't begin to scratch the surface, no matter how deep you dig, [00:28:00] of what they've talked about, what's been discussed, what's been shared. **Myron:** It's a giant database. **Gabriel:** It's an insane database. **Anya:** Now, now, that's sort of, I mean, crowdsourced information is what that is. **Gabriel:** Serious project of his. It's probably going to get passed down to someone else. That's lore. Remember, uh, there was this... So **John:** Hermes is Hermes is lore, good. So, what, what was Mama going to say? **Gabriel:** Okay, sorry. I'm getting distracted talking. **Anya:** Crowd sourced information gathering is extremely powerful and extremely valuable and needs to be promoted. Earth Clinic has, like, saved our lives so many times, and it's the same thing. Earth Clinic. Mm-hmm. Earth Clinic is a, an and Earth clinic is, is differently, um, vetted differently. You don't have to be as marginal or as weird to, to know about it and use it. Mm-hmm. , it's a lot more like, it's not like I have heard of Permaculture. I'm a [00:29:00] permaculturalist and now I will do this perme thing. It's like, you know, I, my grandma told me about, Uh, Basil for toe, toe pain. I was gonna look that up. Oh look, I'm on Earth Clinic now, I'll tell them what I said. **Gabriel:** Permies isn't in that niche either. Really? You, you look up stuff about, uh, a lot of, a lot of homicidal stuff. **Anya:** Oh, because it starts, okay, it pulls people in, yeah. It, it's, uh, like, **Gabriel:** a lot of chicken advice that's more, more specific. **Myron:** Often, Permies will be the only place you can find the stuff. It'll be the top result because it's the only freaking result. **Anya:** Okay, okay. The other ones are sort of... Earth Clinic doesn't come up in searches very much, I guess. But I just, I just want to discuss this concept of crowdsource info and is there another discussion to be had, a new space to open for crowdsource, because I think if we can, we can't, we, we have a lab, we have a lot of people, we don't have a big enough lab, **Gabriel:** we need our own space. **Myron:** [00:30:00] Output first. **Anya:** I mean, the input from other people. Well, yes, but we need a much bigger... More data gathering. **John:** What... We have so much. What out... Um, okay. So, there is... Um, okay. So, I talked about the idea of a, you know, of a blog. And it sounds like, interrupters. Shh. What's that consensus is the... That's not... The way to go, because it would just be, like, too much. Too much of a present. Too Too... What? For somebody to follow linearly. **Gabriel:** Yeah. **John:** It would be nonsensical. It's like, okay, well, yesterday we talked about, you know, using pantyhose as a weed, weeds a present, but today we're going to talk about, um... **Myron:** I mean, we need fun people like us. **John:** Enneagram, you know, Hornetian Enneagram. And then tomorrow we'll talk about... **Anya:** Tomorrow be five minutes from now **John:** rolling in whatever **Gabriel:** this article. [00:31:00] **Sasha:** I would say the tomato seed actually don't, raspberries. If their instinct, **Myron:** it requires too much complex context and information. We still need collect it though. I think we need to collect it and then actually write it down coherently in the wiki. Is that what I'm talking about? Random stuff really. I **John:** really think that we should start from the Wiki, accept its limitations. And work within that and figure out, because Ward Cunningham is like an extra member of our family. I've, you know, talked with him. He absolutely, **Anya:** like, **John:** on the same wavelength. Okay. And has spent years, and yes, he has created Wiki, Wiki has taken over worldwide. He's thinking straight, you know. Okay. Um. We should start from there. I agree. **Gabriel:** Remember, um, okay, so what I said about The goose[00:32:00] **Anya:** does not go outside, the goose is too special. I do not want a muddy goose. **John:** So, I can make wiki farms really easily. It's what we have where You know, all of us have something dot permacultura dot wiki. That's what wiki wants. I just like, throw more domains at this IP address, and I, and I just make a folder, and make a, you know, make a directory, and from there it, you know, it can do it. Um, so that's, that works. And, that way, you know, Gabriel, you could have not just like, Gabriel dot permacultura dot wiki, but we could have like... You know, sandbox. plot. name, or, you know, um, gabe. sandbox and gabe2, or... What's sandbox even mean? It would be like a, just a [00:33:00] scratchpad, like a... **Myron:** Why do you want a million different ones? **John:** Because then, each wiki, it can be a little thing that focuses on a subject area. We could have any agreement. We could have... Also, like, uh, key listeners. So, so... So we could build, we could build, we could collaboratively build an Enneagram website. Where, like, Myron creates, you know, stays up one night and he's, you know, kind of bored, and he writes some stuff about the Hornedium triad. And then, like, And then we're like, oh, okay, that's the, that is currently the latest greatest thing on that topic. We fold it into the public facing site. **Myron:** Yeah. Where's that? Yeah. **Anya:** Is that on wiki **John:** or not? Like, this, on permacultura. wiki, I've got permacultura. wiki, and then there is john. permacultura. wiki. **Gabriel:** Okay. Here's my problem with lining it up. I, okay, so the idea is that **Anya:** I don't want the Wiki to be the, I don't want a wiki to be the public facing site. I'd rather move [00:34:00] it over to like a regular blog. Why? Because the wiki's ugly and people don't know how to navigate it. The Wiki is very hard. **Myron:** Yeah. The Wiki is a technical thing. **Anya:** I think that's showing your toolbox **Sasha:** use, not excessive. **John:** That's fine. There are tools that can export Wiki to a normal looking website. Great. Yay. Therefore, you know, what I'm saying still applies. Yes. **Myron:** What I understand, The individual things will be impossible to keep separate. **John:** The individual things? **Myron:** Because there will be this urge to hyperlink everything to everything else. **John:** Okay. What's the problem with that? **Myron:** Uh, because then you're going to be moving things from one, one, uh, topic to the next topic. I **Anya:** think you're grabbing raspberries, you know? **Gabriel:** Yeah. There are plenty of ways to do that. **John:** Well, that's just, I'm just saying we could do that if we want. **Myron:** I want to put in one, I want to be one central [00:35:00] domain that we all take our things from, and then people go around and collect the bits from all of them. **Anya:** What? It's at three percent. Oh no. I don't know where the plug, if the plug disappears. **Sasha:** Wait, which plug's supposed to be? Here. No, where **Anya:** is it? It's here. It was here. It's not here. Where is it? I don't know. Oh, it's really 9% still flow. My phone quits at 8%. **Gabriel:** Sometimes we can have it move on the wiki, on the main wiki site as a page that we, that we for over from one of ours, modify and, and, um, some more accessible blog. **John:** We've got conflicting goals here. We've got, uh, [00:36:00] The basic thing I'm trying to do, that I think we agree that needs to happen somehow, is we need to convert these freeform, go everywhere conversations into some kind of output. That is, I think we all agree on that, right? Yeah. What, what, what? I'm trying to come up with, like, what we agree on here. Because I'm saying we have some reflecting goals. **Gabriel:** Is that mine? What? **Myron:** No, it is the gray one. It is your gray one. . Are you sure gave him a desk? Yes, it did. But who bought it? Who bought? There are no other cords in the house. Who was using your money? Take care of mine. As soon he's dying now. So **Anya:** well we're, let's talk about cables. Come on. **Gabriel:** Shh. **John:** Okay, so we agree that we need to convert conversation into output. [00:37:00] So, that much is known. Um, do, uh, does, does everybody agree? You know, I can go either way. Does everybody agree with Mama that, um, that ThedWiki, just vanilla ThedWiki is too technical, hard to use? **Myron:** It's technical for... The actual output medium. **Anya:** Yeah, we can't be publishing in that. **Myron:** It's great for our internal network. **John:** So, like, this is a refinement. This is not challenging. This is just asking for more detail. What, for whom, or for what purpose, is it to, you know, what... **Anya:** I can't, I can't send Paula Finch to the wiki to read an article. **Gabriel:** Right. Definitely doesn't work on phones, which is a big issue. **Myron:** It's so hard to scroll on a phone. It's so weird. Wait, how [00:38:00] do you navigate around this thing? Wait, is this the right left thing? What's even going on? **Anya:** I don't even know how to use it. I'm never there. I don't even know how to get into it anymore. Wait, what I would love to make somewhere very, some message how to connect either an email or a telegram or a WhatsApp. There's a, there's a name and a, and a password that I can use to get into some wiki that I don't know what it's called and I don't know where I would find it. And I don't know how. I have no starting point. Okay. Like I have to ask, you are the only person in the world to know how I would down in my wiki and my computer's broken. I'm missing two keys. So I mean, I seriously, I have no clue what two of the keys are. Of course. **Gabriel:** Do you know where they're No, it's great. You, I dunno where they're, oh, right. It just not good for like public obligation. **Anya:** It's not a, it's a tool kit. It's not a **John:** fine. Um, then that means, that means that I'm actually wrong and that we should not do it that way unless, unless we use that as a, um, [00:39:00] As a writing tool, which it might not be the best for. **Myron:** I'm dead set on using the wiki, but not exactly as a writing tool. As an information organization tool. Yeah, for sharing. It takes it down to 2D from 5D. Okay. Or 3D. **John:** Okay. It allows for, it allows for connection based information sharing. **Myron:** And it calls a breakdown. When I'm trying to, when I'm like, But you didn't mention, Yes. Just make a page for that. I can just make a page, a separate page. **Anya:** You spawn, you spawn off all the stupid, It's actually like having a notebook next to your computer to write down all the stuff that comes into your head that you can't write down in there. Okay. **Gabriel:** It's even better because you just get a link. I do want to say. You get a reminder of what it is. You can click that link and write that page whatever you want. **Anya:** What happens to me is I end up going, You make a link, you make de. What was my topic? I mean, I just, I just trail off into **Myron:** You can tie up those indeedly by making a link, and then writing the article later, so it helps you write slow [00:40:00] munch. **Sasha:** Though I do want to say, uh, with the conversation recording thing, we could use, like, uh, we could use Descript. **Anya:** I was just gonna say that to you. **Sasha:** Uh, to, uh, to record Well no, take, take each sub, each topic and put it in like a folder for that kind of topic and then we can put them in some kind of coherent thing. **Anya:** Why don't we telegram. Yes! No, no, proper indexing. This is what I did for the telegram. Not the folders, but... Listen, listen a moment. My dad once taught me that you can take... This is back when nobody had really digital anything. It was all just articles, right? You'd, you'd, maybe you'd print an article that somebody sent you in an email and then you got an article, you copied an article out of a magazine and you had all these topics, pieces of books, whole books, references to things you'd see like, oh this guy I want to call. And every, [00:41:00] this is a, this is a file system that's huge when you make it in real life, but it works. So you just have numbered files. One through twenty thousand or whatever, right? Just all these files. And in every file, you put a thing. In fact, they're not even folders, they're just divisions, because it takes up less space, right? A slot, like a, like a, a flat piece that has a number at the top, and then behind that you put a thing. Next one, thing, thing, thing, thing, each number. Yeah, everything's numbered. And then, in order to, catalog it all, You have a file that is an alphabetized list of topics, and at every topic you put every number. It's like an in, it's like a book index, but it's all your stuff. So like I know that in slots eleven fifty two, a hundred seventy six, ninety nine, uh, are those all cover? I'll mention, okay, this topic **John:** and, and, and in what you do is you type the [00:42:00] word into the search. thing, and up pops exactly that. **Anya:** Even if it's not already hashtagged or something, right? It's just in the article at all. **John:** It's just a whole wiki search engine. **Anya:** Okay, I guess I didn't know it was there. Um, so this... The **Myron:** domain or the entire... Everything **John:** in the neighborhood. **Sasha:** Okay, good. You should be able to... You can't change exactly what it says if you actually get searching, but... **Anya:** Can you? So, I'm wondering, can we take these, descript them, and turn them into wikiposts in a separate like descript spot, or you know, recorded conversations, and now I can look up anything we've talked about, because it's all typed out, unless the AI isn't good enough. **John:** It usually is, I mean, we'll see what the, the main variable is, you know, mic, microphone quality, but the transcription is very good, I, I don't have to, you know, I'm tweaking like. A couple of ambiguous word choices, and [00:43:00] capitalization, and, you know, that's the kind of stuff I'm tweaking after a podcast interview. **Myron:** Here's the thing, for a conversation, or a story, what's that about? What did you think of the conversation we had in Telegram about finding this right, remember that? I got it down to just a bunch of links. I got every single topic covered in there. Which was all broken up because I was talking over everyone else. In what? I'm sorry. In Telegram, we had this conversation. It was just a bunch of links. Because there's all the topics. **Anya:** Was it an audio conversation? **Myron:** And so, that, so it was just, it just, now the entire conversation is condensed and the topics of it in the conversation. And so, now you can just go to each topic. **Anya:** I think if, if Joaquin can do this with geopolitics, which most people find really boring. Um, When we're trying to do it about stuff that has extreme practical value, I think it could work really well. [00:44:00] Okay? I mean, I think that, that, um, The trouble is, we haven't, okay, so we have all this, what we're doing right now is figuring out how to handle our extreme generalism. How do we focus any of this stuff? **Sasha:** My idea, index **Anya:** it. No, I mean, I mean, I mean, focus it for product, for shipping, for production. **Gabriel:** No, for stuff. Okay, so of why we need to do this. This is a super, super, super interesting conversation. I'm, I'm getting all sad that Amy doesn't have the time to listen to this kind of thing. **Anya:** She should listen while she works. **Gabriel:** Whatever. She wants to and everything. She wants to hear these conversations. She wants to hear about all these things we talk about and everything. **Anya:** Well, we have those now. **Gabriel:** Right. But it's, it's over an hour long time. Yeah. So, that's not practical. We need to condense it. I don't [00:45:00] think it's been an hour long. We need to condense it into topics. Like, my aunt talked about. So, uh, we can, let's, let me try to go over what I'm, what I'm hearing here. We have, You can put it through a script and get a beautiful transcription out of it. And, uh, from there the human side is probably dividing it into speakers because we talk over each other. Or, I don't know how it does that. **John:** No, I mean, it, the script does that pretty well. The script looks like that, actually. It has a speaker detector, you just, you know, it detects the different speakers. You, and then it plays samples of each for you, and you tell it who that is, just like iPhoto. That's beautiful. Um, and then it like, you know, then you get transcript. **Anya:** Suddenly I like the AI, it's just scary. **John:** AI is good for some things, you know. I mean there's so many things AI can do. When it's not making decisions for you, when it's just like, you know, being a typist. **Sasha:** I got this place, I run this place, uh, cover.[00:46:00] **Gabriel:** So, what am I saying? So once we have that transcript, Uh, we can, We can put the entire thing, On a big page. The entire transcript, on one page. And then, condense it all. And from there, we link it out, And condense the topics into, We link it out as we go to each time. **John:** Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just like we did with the telegram when we were discussing things. **Gabriel:** Look at the Miss Wright article. I have a telegram and you'll see exactly what you're describing. Right, okay. Um, So, Wait, wait, I'm going through the whole passage. I'll go again. So then we have, Then we have each, It's an individual page for each of these little, These separate topics, and they're aligned in a column **Anya:** that's a very dirty towel to do they go from there?[00:47:00] **John:** I have a, I have a very firm idea of this. So, in, in school, um, well we are, you know, we're going to do our research paper for the semester. Okay? And so, you know, first couple weeks of the semester, they say, okay, we're going to do this big research paper, you have to get ready, and so then we would, you know, do it. Here's how you're going to take notes on all your source material, okay? And now you're going to write an outline. And now you're going to fill in the outline with, you know, what things from all my research go into where, what parts of the outline. And then you write it through, and then you do a draft, and all this kind of stuff. Well, we're doing most of that. And what we're, you know, then it's just, um, So we, we're, we'll have these [00:48:00] conversations, we'll organize them into what was actually covered and we'll say, Wow, I really liked our Hornibian, you know, Enneagram discussion. Um, let's pull that stuff out and, you know, make an article out of it. And then, we just, now we've got the material. Anybody can do this at this point. We say, okay, what is the question that, you know, somebody out there has in the world, think Quora. Somebody has a question, they're going to type it into a search engine someday, and what comes back from our conversation? Okay, so we have a headline that is basically the question, and then, you know, the foundational knowledge you need to understand the answer, and then the answer, and then something that wraps it up. **Myron:** And so we can have a blog that's divided into the topics that we have found all of our conversations to lead up into, whatever those might be, right, because all of our conversations have certain topics in them, [00:49:00] or share, you know, and so basically there's going to be, and then the blog will be divided into those topics, and then the subtopics, which is what we're linking to, uh, within the wiki, right? And so that's the blog. And so when you click on the link, when you've done it on the search engine, you get dropped right in the middle of that subject. So that you don't have to click far away to get into more about that subject you've written. But if you zoom out, you can see whatever we've done. **John:** So, what we just did was, uh, say, okay, so, here's our signal path that we're talking about. We have conversations, we capture things on the fridge, we record videos, whatever it is. It goes into a wiki, gets linked up, you know, with other things where we cover similar topics. We write about it, maybe if it's a video. Or the transcript gets pasted into the wiki. Or the [00:50:00] video. Or the audio. Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, we surface some of those things, we say, okay, you know, but, um, I want to turn that conversation into something, and we can get part of the way through that in wiki, you know, like, somebody writes a wiki page that has that article, pulls from those things, then we put it on the blog. So the blog is... You know, it's not the fire hose that I was talking about, where, you know, somebody, we just dump every, you know, print shot, and every raw, raw conversation with, you know, thousands of interactions and everything, everything. We, we post those articles, and then, from there, we look at what gets the most, we, [00:51:00] we figure out, you know, **Myron:** Which of the topics need books, and which ones need a series of books. **John:** Or, and which ones, which ones are just like blog posts. **Anya:** Or nobody wants to hear about them at all. Which one has nothing to do with anybody? I'm not. **Myron:** Mama, you are though. **Sasha:** We are going to do it. **Anya:** I need to sew and cook and clean and wash people's hair. **John:** What we need is to create a system where you can have thoughts. You put them into this, you know, this machine, this, you know, this system. Our family, you know, raises it to a boil, um, and processes the result and it comes out as a book. **Anya:** Stop, no. You may not touch the phone. **John:** You're the author of approval. [00:52:00] **Anya:** This is not MEAF, but okay. What I want is a system where we're selling so many books that I can hire four Marias, and I can have no more cleaning responsibilities, and I basically just take care of little girls, sew, and write. And teach classes with like... Other kids and you know, **John:** yeah, let's do it **Anya:** Somebody else somebody else My kids don't have to do their don't have to do housework because they're doing so much intellectual productive. As long as we're working. Yeah. Yeah. As long as you're working. You're not playing video games. You're working. You're making. He's just, this kid's redrawing flat house plans into 3D house plans. That's extremely cool. That's what It makes him not want to do anything else. **John:** Are you, like, did somebody tell you how to do this? Or what's, what **Sasha:** I mean, back in [00:53:00] 2018, I saw a video of this paper, so I wanted something right in line. It's my 10th birthday, so I got that, and now... **Anya:** He's been working on this ever since, this 3D paper stuff. **Gabriel:** What? This is so, no, this is genuinely so cool. **Anya:** What? Now you can print that paper out, right? I haven't seen it. **Sasha:** Yeah, I, I, I didn't know, but they have, they have one on CompTech. **Gabriel:** I haven't seen this, this is amazing. **Sasha:** What am I doing? What the heck? I'll do it. It's also a lot easier to understand, like, what Are you going down or up? Yeah, yeah, I'm like, There is a little bit of a giant, I don't remember the software. **Anya:** But the thing is, not just the paper. How do you know what to do with the other dimensions that you can't see on the original page? How do you know the heights? **Sasha:** I can, oh, how do I know the heights? I count through, I, well, since, Since the walls aren't solid, I can see the graphics still. No, no, no. I can count through and [00:54:00] know where it goes. This is a, this is a basic, uh, uh, Oh! It's a side thing. It's not, it doesn't even have numbers on it like this does. No, what, there's, this is almost exactly the same scale. I want pictures, I want pictures of your two sources. Yeah, there's this, and that, and then this. **Anya:** I just wanted to take a picture of each of those sources, and then a picture of what you're doing. He was trying to explain it **Gabriel:** I mean, you just work from references and the rest falls into place. **Anya:** It's really smart though. Yeah. **Gabriel:** It's beautiful to see, to see the house **Anya:** that he's going to build. He said he would love to just like sit and draft these for some architect he needs to show. Draft them for my own? Yeah, you can be the artist, the concept artist. Oh, **Myron:** yes. Absolutely. I'm not good at that. So **Anya:** somebody's drawing plans for a new church, or a new house, like, you know, a concept. Like, at, like, at Pomog, they have this... I need to propose to Nikita **Gabriel:** Invera that **Anya:** I find property for them. [00:55:00] Yeah. I could do that. Because... Did you look for property? What? Did you find property? **Myron:** No. Oh, I found a really cool concept. Nikita Invera, you mean. Where? For Nikita Invera. I couldn't find them a good place to build a good house. **Gabriel:** Let's be a big business family, guys, and stay connected. Let's do that. **Myron:** That's what I wanted to do a long time ago. You're like, now, I want to go to Australia or something. But now it looks like you're not saying that anymore, so. Okay. That's what agree with you, okay? That's all I'm saying. I agree. Now he agrees with you. Maybe he didn't before. Gabe, do want to visit Australia at some point. Oh, a visit now, okay. **Gabriel:** Well, what did I say before? Did I say anything before? No. Right. No, I never actually said that. You guys said that. Yep. You guys decided. Gabe's moving to Australia now. Because he knows [00:56:00] someone there. That's so ridiculous. You know someone there. Yes. **Anya:** I know someone who's presently in Turkey. Am I going to Turkey? **Gabriel:** I know someone who's really into this now. Where's Nicholas? He's back on the radio. Okay, so we kind of ran out of topics. We ran out of topics. Can we end the recording and get a sentence to Papa? Very important for the reader.